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 May 09 2008, 17:26 PM |
Dun Chaochain
"Gaeilgeoir"
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 476
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Spoken Irish tends to get rid of an unstressed vowel when if follows another vowel, hence:
Cé bhí ann? = Cé a bhí ann?
but in
Nuair a bhí sé ann, the 'a' tends to get pronounced, because it is preceeded by a consonant. |
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| May 10 2008, 8:27 AM |
djwebb1969
"Gaeilgeoir"
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: China
Posts: 128
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| There seems to be a misapprehension here that there is an "optional" "a" after "cé" that may get swallowed. Nothing is swallowed Traditional Irish never had an "a" after "cé". There was nothing to swallow. Cé is a leniting particle, pure and simple. Only in the partly invented STandard Irish, they brought in a non-existent rule that cé has to be followed by "a". This fatuous rule did not reflect anything in any of the dialects of traditional Irish. |
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| May 10 2008, 8:49 AM |
Aibigéal
"Scríbhneoir d'Éigean"
Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Location: An Eilvéis
Posts: 20,463
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In a nutshell:
In the CO, the a is required. It's true you don't hear it in speech sometimes, but it should always be written.
Historically and dialectally you'll see several possibilities: cé bhris, cé do bhris and cé a bhris. Which one is "right" depends what kind/period of Irish you're trying to emulate.
DJWebb, when you say "traditional Irish" what exactly do you have in mind? Classical Irish? A particular dialect at a particular time?
_________________
Fáilte roimh cheartúcháin. / I'm still a learner!
 Nach í an chuid súl í! |
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| May 10 2008, 9:53 AM |
djwebb1969
"Gaeilgeoir"
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: China
Posts: 128
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| Aibigéal wrote: |
In a nutshell:
In the CO, the a is required. It's true you don't hear it in speech sometimes, but it should always be written.
Historically and dialectally you'll see several possibilities: cé bhris, cé do bhris and cé a bhris. Which one is "right" depends what kind/period of Irish you're trying to emulate.
DJWebb, when you say "traditional Irish" what exactly do you have in mind? Classical Irish? A particular dialect at a particular time? |
I know Munster Irish has no "a", but if you know that there definitely is an "a" or a "do" elsewhere, then I stand corrected. Which areas have "a" and which have "do"? |
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| May 10 2008, 10:07 AM |
djwebb1969
"Gaeilgeoir"
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: China
Posts: 128
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I am under the impression that when they came to "standardize" Irish Grammar, they decided to "make up" a rule that says "all question words are followed by relative sentences". As far as I have been told this was not the case in 18th and 19th century literature. It would be interesting to see counter examples.
There are only 2 fundamental question words:
Cá: not followed by "a" (thereby proving the "rule" false): actually followed by eclipsis
Cé: not followed by "a" in old literature (I am awaiting examples of cad followed by "do")
The confusion about question words may have arisen from the fact that OTHER question words apart from the 2 above are derived question words that do contain a relative clause:
Cad: cé is rud (a)
Conas: cé is ionnas (a)
In which case, the people drawing up standard Irish got confused, and thought it was a "rule" that all question words were followed by relative clauses but "you just couldn't hear it after cé"!
Finally: in Munster Cad and Conas are not followed by "a" before tá and deir, but I think this is by way of an exception Cad tá ort? Conas tánn tú? Cad duairt sé?
I know some people won't be interestd in the background, but there will be others here who are learning Munster Irish, and other still who will want to know the background anyway. |
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| May 10 2008, 10:13 AM |
djwebb1969
"Gaeilgeoir"
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: China
Posts: 128
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| There are lots of forms of mura incl muna, mara etc. They derived from Old Irish "mani", a form that doesn't exist anywhere any more. The Cork form in Myles Dillon TYI is "mara", but Peadar Ua Laoghaire uses Mura in his Mo Sgéal Féin. |
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| May 10 2008, 21:24 PM |
Grumpy Old Fogey
"Getting Addicted"
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 60
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It is with some reluctance that I intrude myself on this forum as I am neither looking for nor offering a translation, but I don't think I should let misinformation about the language pass without comment.
| djwebb1969 wrote: |
| I am under the impression that when they came to "standardize" Irish Grammar, they decided to "make up" a rule that says "all question words are followed by relative sentences". |
With the exception of fractions (if they can be said to be part of grammar) there is nothing 'made up' in standard Irish grammar. Anyone who says otherwise either has a poor knowledge of the varieties of the spoken language, or of older literary forms, or of both.
| djwebb1969 wrote: |
| As far as I have been told this was not the case in 18th and 19th century literature. It would be interesting to see counter examples. |
'Is do fhiafraigh Colum cia do bhí ag a mbualadh amhlaidh sin.'
Seathrún Céitinn, Foras Feasa ar Éirinn, edited by PS Dineen, volume 3, p. 90.
'cé a sheol ar farraige thú ag tíocht go hÉirinn'
Nicholas Williams (ed.), Riocard Bairéad: Amhráin, p. 89.
Those examples date from the 17th and 19th centuries respectively.
| djwebb1969 wrote: |
Cad: cé is rud (a)
Conas: cé is ionnas (a)
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These etymologies are incorrect. 'Cad' derives from Old Irish 'cid', the neuter form of 'cia' (= modern 'cé'). 'Conas' derives from Old Irish 'cindas'.
| djwebb1969 wrote: |
In which case, the people drawing up standard Irish got confused,
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If I were thirty years younger, I'd insert one of those laughing yellow faces at this point - or perhaps the one with the rolling eyes would be more appropriate. Acting my age, I will just say that the confusion does not lie with Niall Ó Dónaill and his colleagues. |
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| May 11 2008, 2:32 AM |
Dun Chaochain
"Gaeilgeoir"
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 476
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| Fáilte, a sheanfhear chantalach! |
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| May 11 2008, 4:07 AM |
djwebb1969
"Gaeilgeoir"
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: China
Posts: 128
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deleted
Last edited by djwebb1969 on May 11 2008, 5:05 AM; edited 1 time in total |
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| May 11 2008, 4:09 AM |
djwebb1969
"Gaeilgeoir"
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: China
Posts: 128
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deleted
Last edited by djwebb1969 on May 11 2008, 5:06 AM; edited 1 time in total |
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