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 March 26 2008, 17:37 PM |
BuachaillBeo
"Laoch na nGael"
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Location: Corcaigh
Posts: 1,395
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| Pwyll2 wrote: |
| "Na" is not pronounced "nah" but "nuh", everywhere in Ireland as far as I know. (except if "ah" is pronounced "uh" in your part of the world... I dunno) |
nah is how i'd render how i've heard every irish speaker say it. maybe we just say nah and nuh in different ways to each other
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| But do people say "tháinig tú" in Munster? Isn't it "tháinís" ? |
are people in munster incapable of pronouncing 'tháinig tú'? do our tongues twist and somehow stop us from being able to say it? this was the pronunciation that was asked for. I gave it as is, as tháinig tú isn't wrong and being from Munster doesn't render me incapable of pronouncing the thing
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| BB, you seem to be angry about IPA, but isn't it simply because you don't know it? If you knew it you'd realise how useful it is. |
I know it's extremely beneficial, much more so than english sounding phonetics... it's not the useful IPA i'm 'angry about'.. it's the fact that you well know that the OP most likely doesn't know it and so it's useless giving them an IPA rendering if they don't know what to do with it and they'd most likely be happier with an estimation with english-sounding phonetics. it's snobbery.... when you know that the majority (vast majority i'd imagine) of OPs wont know IPA... wouldn't it be better to give them english sounding phonetics and maybe saying something like 'more accurately it'd be like this in IPA' or whatever, instead of going as you might as well and saying something like 'oh yes, here it is. don't know ipa? pssh you're not worth knowing how to pronounce this word..... want to know a rough estimation for something you're writing on a birthday card? sorry bud, it's my way or no way.... let you go off and learn IPA there now because i'm a pedant'
my point is that if the OP knows IPA then of course that's a better medium for people to write in.... but you know most OPs wont so a bit of practicality and assessing the situation for what it is wouldn't go far wrong.
On a less confrontational note, where'd be the best place for one to go to learn IPA, i'll be doing a small bit of travelling in the summer and was thinking for a while IPA'd be a handy tool to have
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| March 26 2008, 20:50 PM |
Pwyll2
"Scéalaí Mór"
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Location: I gcoillte mo shinsear
Posts: 2,152
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| Quote: |
| nah is how i'd render how i've heard every irish speaker say it. maybe we just say nah and nuh in different ways to each other |
Maybe. For me, "nah" would have the vowel [a], as in Irish "bean".
I use "uh" for the same sound as the "a" in the English word "alone".
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| are people in munster incapable of pronouncing 'tháinig tú'? do our tongues twist and somehow stop us from being able to say it? this was the pronunciation that was asked for. I gave it as is, as tháinig tú isn't wrong and being from Munster doesn't render me incapable of pronouncing the thing |
You don't understand. I mean, if "tháinig tú" is not used in Munster, you can't give a Munster pronunciation of it because it doesn't exist.
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| I know it's extremely beneficial, much more so than english sounding phonetics... it's not the useful IPA i'm 'angry about'.. it's the fact that you well know that the OP most likely doesn't know it and so it's useless giving them an IPA rendering if they don't know what to do with it and they'd most likely be happier with an estimation with english-sounding phonetics. |
First, Gryph wrote "So if anyone can help and spell this out phonetically it would be greatly appreciated". How can you guess he doesn't know IPA?
Secondly, it is Bearn who first gave an IPA transcription and we discussed all that (with Aibí too). And I gave a transcription of the way I think it would be pronounced. So, 3 people about IPA here, and who do you blame? Me alone, as usual.
| Quote: |
| it's snobbery.... when you know that the majority (vast majority i'd imagine) of OPs wont know IPA... wouldn't it be better to give them english sounding phonetics and maybe saying something like 'more accurately it'd be like this in IPA' or whatever, instead of going as you might as well and saying something like 'oh yes, here it is. don't know ipa? pssh you're not worth knowing how to pronounce this word..... want to know a rough estimation for something you're writing on a birthday card? sorry bud, it's my way or no way.... let you go off and learn IPA there now because i'm a pedant' |
You do know that most of the time I don't use IPA here, when it's possible to give an English-like transcription that isn't too far from the right pronunciation I use it, and very often I give a recording. So don't say that I'm a pedant because I always bother people with IPA. I wouldn't have used it in this thread if Bearn hadn't used it first.
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| my point is that if the OP knows IPA then of course |
Sorry but what is an OP? You're being pedantic by using abbreviations people don't all understand 
| Quote: |
| On a less confrontational note, where'd be the best place for one to go to learn IPA, i'll be doing a small bit of travelling in the summer and was thinking for a while IPA'd be a handy tool to have |
One of the best ones I've seen is this one: http://www.paulmeier.com/ipa/charts.html (recordings are provided). Here are videos and recordings http://www.shef.ac.uk/ipa/symbols.php , but not all the symbols are given.
But first of all, you must know that between slashes //, you write phonology, and between square brackets, [] phonetics. Phonetics are the exact sounds you hear. Phonology uses phonems (represented by symbols that don't all exist in the IPA); for more explanations about that, I think you'd find stuff on Wikipedia.
For example, in phonology you'd write /kivN'ə/ for "cuimhne" in Donegal, but in phonetics it is [kˠɪβɲɪ] (a diacritic lacks under the β, but I can't type it here now). If you need help with IPA, feel free to ask me.
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Is fearr Gaeilg chliste ná Gaeilg bhriste
Learn the sounds of Irish here: http://www.loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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| March 26 2008, 20:54 PM |
Redwolf
"Ard-Banríon na Ráiméise"
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Location: Poblacht California
Posts: 41,269
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"OP" = "Original Poster," i.e., the person who initiated the request.
Redwolf
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Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste
Is fearr Gaeilge na scoile ná gan Gaeilge ar bith |
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| March 26 2008, 21:05 PM |
BuachaillBeo
"Laoch na nGael"
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Location: Corcaigh
Posts: 1,395
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| Pwyll2 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| nah is how i'd render how i've heard every irish speaker say it. maybe we just say nah and nuh in different ways to each other |
Maybe. For me, "nah" would have the vowel [a], as in Irish "bean".
I use "uh" for the same sound as the "a" in the English word "alone". |
ya that's fair enough
| Quote: |
| You don't understand. I mean, if "tháinig tú" is not used in Munster, you can't give a Munster pronunciation of it because it doesn't exist. |
not everyone in munster uses the foirm táite equivalent.. i was trying to give more a standard pronunciation anyway
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| First, Gryph wrote "So if anyone can help and spell this out phonetically it would be greatly appreciated". How can you guess he doesn't know IPA? |
I can't... but I'm willing to bet that if we took a poll of people asking for pronunciations on this site as their first post - the vast majority wont have a clue what IPA even is, let alone be able to use pronunciations given in it.
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| Secondly, it is Bearn who first gave an IPA transcription and we discussed all that (with Aibí too). And I gave a transcription of the way I think it would be pronounced. So, 3 people about IPA here, and who do you blame? Me alone, as usual. |
I addressed it to 'lads' but it was you who responded so that's why I'm talking to you now... but you're right I suppose it should be addressed at Bearn really...
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| You do know that most of the time I don't use IPA here, when it's possible to give an English-like transcription that isn't too far from the right pronunciation I use it, and very often I give a recording. So don't say that I'm a pedant because I always bother people with IPA. I wouldn't have used it in this thread if Bearn hadn't used it first. |
the same as above... i don't mean you in this case but i should've specified... and anyway i didn't want to make this an 'attack' on anyone... more that i think people shouldn't bother putting IPA on it's own without knowing if the original poster knows how to read and use it first.
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| Sorry but what is an OP? You're being pedantic by using abbreviations people don't all understand |
haha sorry, 'original poster' 
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One of the best ones I've seen is this one: http://www.paulmeier.com/ipa/charts.html (recordings are provided). Here are videos and recordings http://www.shef.ac.uk/ipa/symbols.php , but not all the symbols are given.
But first of all, you must know that between slashes //, you write phonology, and between square brackets, [] phonetics. Phonetics are the exact sounds you hear. Phonology uses phonems (represented by symbols that don't all exist in the IPA); for more explanations about that, I think you'd find stuff on Wikipedia.
For example, in phonology you'd write /kivN'ə/ for "cuimhne" in Donegal, but in phonetics it is [kˠɪβɲɪ] (a diacritic lacks under the β, but I can't type it here now). If you need help with IPA, feel free to ask me. |
thanks a million 
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Always wait for confirmation on my translations!
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| March 26 2008, 21:08 PM |
BuachaillBeo
"Laoch na nGael"
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Location: Corcaigh
Posts: 1,395
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reading back my comment before the last one, i meant 'you' as in a general kind of thing but i can see how you'd read it to mean yourself - sorry about that!
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Always wait for confirmation on my translations!
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| March 26 2008, 21:19 PM |
Pwyll2
"Scéalaí Mór"
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Location: I gcoillte mo shinsear
Posts: 2,152
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| Quote: |
Maybe. For me, "nah" would have the vowel [a], as in Irish "bean".
I use "uh" for the same sound as the "a" in the English word "alone".
ya that's fair enough |
So, the article "na" is pronounced as "nuh" (according to what I wrote above) by every Gaeltacht speaker, not as what I'd transcribe "nah".
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| not everyone in munster uses the foirm táite equivalent.. i was trying to give more a standard pronunciation anyway |
Ok but to me there's no standard pronunciation... and if there was one, I don't think it would use "cwee-nig" for "cuimhnigh"...
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| reading back my comment before the last one, i meant 'you' as in a general kind of thing but i can see how you'd read it to mean yourself - sorry about that! |
Should use "yous" or "ye" or "y'all" instead of "you" maybe
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Is fearr Gaeilg chliste ná Gaeilg bhriste
Learn the sounds of Irish here: http://www.loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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| March 26 2008, 21:51 PM |
BuachaillBeo
"Laoch na nGael"
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Location: Corcaigh
Posts: 1,395
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| Pwyll2 wrote: |
| So, the article "na" is pronounced as "nuh" (according to what I wrote above) by every Gaeltacht speaker, not as what I'd transcribe "nah". |
we have the same pronunciation but just rendered it differently
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| Ok but to me there's no standard pronunciation... and if there was one, I don't think it would use "cwee-nig" for "cuimhnigh"... |
why not?
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| Should use "yous" or "ye" or "y'all" instead of "you" maybe |
but they're not standard English
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Always wait for confirmation on my translations!
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| March 26 2008, 23:27 PM |
DoireTrasna
"Craic Pusher"
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Derry & Boston
Posts: 8,163
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is it safe to come outta the IPA resistant bunker  yet ?
in that instance, above, ye might consider using "one" - if ye were given tae that sorta thing. |
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| March 27 2008, 2:10 AM |
Bearn
"Gaeilgeoir"
Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 339
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| Quote: |
| So, 3 people about IPA here, and who do you blame? Me alone, as usual. |
There is no need for this anti-IPA stuff -it's only a code after all. My use of it led to a discussion which led to looking at the dialect studies and finding the conditions for the short u -hardly riveting stuff, I grant you, but as the man says, it all stands to you...
As for a general pronoun, 'you' is so useful...
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Tír gan seacláid, tír gan anam! |
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| March 27 2008, 7:06 AM |
gryph
"New Arrival"
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 4
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Wow... I leave for a few days and I think I opened up a can of worms here...
Maybe that goes to show that I shouldn't just take a few days off!!
Well, thank you to everyones help - I didn't know about IPA - But reading through this I now do, so I'm a little more enlightened now...
But for a side note, I was looking at getting that as a tattoo, following my family name as kind of a rememberance for my father. But I wanted to be able to pronounce it, so if someone asked what it meant. I'd hate to just say 'oh it means this, but I have no idea on how to pronounce it' |
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