Irish Translation Forum

Can someone help me here? I'm learning "standard" but would appreciate any dialectical comments if they are applicable. "Rules" really help me out if there's any that can be shared. I know there's a lot in here, but any comments are much appreciated.

I'm trying to understand all the formations of the preposition "le". [Who knew such a little word was such trouble!]

I believe you use the Dative case with le, (only prepositions it is not used with is gan and go dtí and maybe (?) chun which takes the genitive?). Dative is almost always identical to the Nominative in CO ?

Also, le does not add séimhiú or urús to the following nouns.

So is "le chéile" incorrect in CO? What dialect is it from, and is "le céile" actually used?

In CO there are few nouns that have a different Dative from Nominative -- exceptional words:
cos -> cois = foot
lámh -> láimh = hand
bróg -> bróig = shoe
bos -> bois = palm
cluas -> cluais = ear

Éire -> Éirinn = Ireland

Exceptions for phrases:
ceann -> cionn = head e.g. os cionn
ciall -> céill = sense e.g. cur i gcéill = to convince

For other words in the 2nd declension, that end in a broad consonant, it's an optional change to form the Dative, e.g.
fuinneog -> fuinneoig
deoch -> digh

Also some irregulars: (are these "optional" also in CO?)
bean -> mnaoi
teach -> tigh

What happens when you are using "leis an" -- are the nouns in the Dative?
Do any mutations take place? I've seen comments/lessons that say you add an urú [but words beginning with d or t do not get an urú after leis an?], but others that it depends on the gender of the following noun -- is this dialectical or just that I've picked this up wrong?

And then.... what happens in the plural, with "leis na" ? Dative? Mutations?

One other question about le -- when followed by a word beginning with a vowel what is the correct mutation? h or n- or is there a specific case for each? I've seen both of these:
le hÁine = with Áine (or by Áine (for a book, poem, etc))
neart le n-ól = to be able to drink

Why not neart le hól or neart le h-ól?

GRMA in advance!

h before the vowel with "leis na"
leis na hiriseoirí

i think it is unchanged with consonants
leis na mná

tir gan teearnagan tir gan anam

le chéile is short for lena chéile, where a is the masculine possessive pronoun which lenites. The lenition persists even though a is omitted hence your confusion.

The name dative for the third case in Irish is linguistically a misnomer, as the forms could never actually be used in dative sense. Instead, the dative invariably functions as a prepositive case and as such is designed for use in constructions like leis an [noun]. In the standard the dative case is merged with the nominative, and as such the distinct suffixes will fall into disuse. Except that is in a few fossilized expressions, some of which you mentioned. Given that you don't have to make a study of the dative endings as they will be obsolete before long anyway. At least the case is no longer productive.

Mutation of nouns after preposition and article is rather preposition dependent. Many eclipse, but some lenite. There is also some dialect dependency here. le eclipses in constructions as leis an bhfear. On itself, le geminates and therefore prefixes h to a following word starting with a vowel. A prefixed n indicates nazalization (eclipsis). The underlying reason is the word that causes the eclipsis originally ended on an n but lost it over time. When the next word begins with a vowel, the 'colliding' vowels cause the n to resurface.

i wouldn't worry too much about dative cases if i were you.
you'll very rarely see the dative outside of atrophied sayings.
most of the simple prepositions take the dative or the accusative, neither of which are differentiated in noun declensions these days.
there used to be a slight difference in meaning between using the accusative or the dative after some prepositions, a bit like modern german, but that doesn't really exist any more either.

i think if you look at these preps the most eclipse when used with the singular article with the exception of de, do, i, which lenite.

there were some prepositions which originally took the nominative case, but i havenae a clue about them at all

the genitive preps are:
chun; trasna; tar éis, timpeall, cois.
and the compounds derived from them

le = no change except h before a vowel
leis an = eclipsis
leis na = no special change (the usual rules for the article apply)
d and t will eclipse in kerry after leis an

as for that le n-ól vs le h-ól/le hól,
le n-ól when le is used in the same sense as chun - "in order to"
le h-ól when the meaning is to be drunk
táim anso le n-ól - i'm here to drink
tá bainne le hól - there is milk to be drunk

anyway that's just my take on it and someone will probably pick it full of holes

Okay. Certainly not a grammar expert but I'd like to offer the little knowledge I have.

fio_smiles wrote:I believe you use the Dative case with le,

Indeed.

fio_smiles wrote:Dative is almost always identical to the Nominative in CO ?

Yep, it's basically the same as the nominative, just when you're using a preposition. (Generally the only differences are urús and séimhiús)

fio_smiles wrote:(only prepositions it is not used with is gan and go dtí and maybe (?) chun which takes the genitive?)

Gan (lenites), go dtí, idir (lenites... mostly) and seachas all take the nominative.
Chun, dála, fearacht, trasna and timpeall take the genitive.
Compound prepositions take the genitive (usually).

fio_smiles wrote:So is "le chéile" incorrect in CO? What dialect is it from, and is "le céile" actually used?

Le céile is wrong. It's "le chéile", always

fio_smiles wrote:bean -> mnaoi

Well it's not the norm, however non-standard forms are not officially designated as "wrong" by the CO, you can still use them, it's just not the general way of saying it.

fio_smiles wrote:teach -> tigh

Well, I often use "Tigh" even in the nominative, which is correct in Munster. I know tigh is an acceptable dative form but it's the same situation as mnaoi above (I think).

fio_smiles wrote:What happens when you are using "leis an" -- are the nouns in the Dative?

Le + An -> Leis an. Basically, you just add an urú, unless the word begins with D, T or S (Dentals rule).

fio_smiles wrote:And then.... what happens in the plural, with "leis na" ?

Nothin'.

fio_smiles wrote:neart le n-ól = to be able to drink
Why not neart le hól or neart le h-ól?

No idea, I'd have written "Neart le hól"... maybe it's a set phrase or something.


**PS - I started typing this before dinner, then stopped to eat and then finished it... so I'm posting it whether or not someone has covered most of these points or not ;p

***Edit
So I guess a lot of what I said was already covered but I suppose some of my post can be considered useful... but look at Caffler's explanation of hól/n-ól (Very informative!)

Emphyrio wrote:le chéile is short for lena chéile, where a is the masculine possessive pronoun which lenites. The lenition persists even though a is omitted hence your confusion.

Thank you! That really makes sense!

Caffler wrote:le = no change except h before a vowel
leis an = eclipsis
leis na = no special change (the usual rules for the article apply)
d and t will eclipse in kerry after leis an

Thanks!

Caffler wrote:as for that le n-ól vs le h-ól/le hól,
le n-ól when le is used in the same sense as chun - "in order to"
le h-ól when the meaning is to be drunk
táim anso le n-ól - i'm here to drink
tá bainne le hól - there is milk to be drunk

anyway that's just my take on it and someone will probably pick it full of holes

That kinda makes sense, but I think it'll take me a little bit of time before I'm able to use it naturally -- can you think of any other examples that would help me?

raic wrote:Compound prepositions take the genitive (usually).

Does leis an count as a compound preposition since le changes to leis or are compound prepositions only like don or den ?

raic wrote:Le + An -> Leis an. Basically, you just add an urú, unless the word begins with D, T or S (Dentals rule).

So Dentals apply to urús as well as séimhiús ?


Thanks for your help -- other thoughts are welcome too!

fio_smiles wrote:
Does leis an count as a compound preposition since le changes to leis or are compound prepositions only like don or den ?

None of those are compound prepositions, actually. Compound prepositions are things like "tar éis", "ar aghaidh", "i gcoinne", "ar fud", etc. Basically, it's a preposition with a noun just glued on

fio_smiles wrote:
So Dentals apply to urús as well as séimhiús ?

Funny you should say this, I was helping a guy in my Irish class the other day and he was surprised to learn that Dentals applies to _séimhiús_ as well as urús (Didn't believe me at first, had to whip out the grammar book). So yes, indeed it does.

Raic wrote:

fio_smiles wrote:
Does leis an count as a compound preposition since le changes to leis or are compound prepositions only like don or den ?

None of those are compound prepositions, actually. Compound prepositions are things like "tar éis", "ar aghaidh", "i gcoinne", "ar fud", etc. Basically, it's a preposition with a noun just glued on

Gah! OK -- thank you. There goes my misunderstanding! Thank you.

Raic wrote:

fio_smiles wrote:
So Dentals apply to urús as well as séimhiús ?

Funny you should say this, I was helping a guy in my Irish class the other day and he was surprised to learn that Dentals applies to _séimhiús_ as well as urús (Didn't believe me at first, had to whip out the grammar book). So yes, indeed it does.

Heh. OK, that helps

I'm interested to see Caffler's distinction between le hól and le n-ól. I was sure (well I had a vague idea!) that they just used the latter in Connemara as their dialectal version of le hól.

By the way, I have definitely seen/heard the likes of le theacht in Connemara or thereabouts. Non-standard of course.