Irish Translation Forum

I have read a few things on indirect/dir. clauses in Irish, and it didn't make sense.

Can somebody tell me the difference btween them?, and provide an example or two.

Bump

I find it hard to explain, scoobytyson or Breandán would be one of the best to explain the grammar as they normally do.

Using English terms:

Direct relative:

The woman who ate the meat

The horse that jumped the fence

Indirect relative:

The woman to whom I gave the meat

The horse that I rode over the fence.

Redwolf

Yes, see, I get English clauses, but I don't understand Irish ones.

Tenebre wrote:Yes, see, I get English clauses, but I don't understand Irish ones.

To put it more specifically, it's a direct relative if the head noun is the subject or direct object of the modifying verb. Using examples from "Intermediate Irish":

An múinteoir a fheicim: The teacher [whom] I see

An múinteori a fheiceann mé: The teacher who sees me

Those are both direct relatives.

It's an indirect relative if the noun defined by the relative clause also functions within the clause as the object of a preposition or possessor of another noun. Two more examples from "Intermediate Irish":

Sin é an teach a bhfanaim ann: That is the house in which I stay ("house" is the object of a preposition)

Sin é an fear a bhfuair a bhean bás: That's the man whose wife died (the man is the "possessor" of the wife who died)

In Irish, if the second clause has a prepositional pronoun in it, it's going to be an indirect relative. It can get confusing, because things that will be prepositional phrases in Irish aren't always so in English.

Does that clear it up a bit?


Redwolf

Redwolf wrote:Does that clear it up a bit?

Sort of, I understand direct clause now, but still not getting my head around indirect..thanks for the help

AN FORAINM COIBHNEASTA

The Forainm Coibhneasta (Relative Pronoun) relates the noun in the first clause of a sentence to the rest of the sentence.

Sin é an fear. Chaill sé an t-airgead.
Sin é an fear a chaill an t-airgead.

• The word ‘a’ (who / that / which) is a pronoun standing for the word ‘fear’.
• It relates the word ‘fear’ to the rest of the sentence.
• It is therefore called a Relative Pronoun.

The form of the FC, along with the verb that follows it, indicates which Tuiseal (Case) the noun represented by the FC is in.
In other words, the FC and the verb that follows it may change form depending on whether the FC is the subject in the sentence, the object, governed (affected) by a preposition, or indicating possession.




Look carefully at the following examples:

AIMSIR LÁITHREACH .


[T.A. = Tuiseal Ainmneach / Nominative Case....T.C. = Accusative.....T.T. = Dative.....T.G. = Genitive]

T.A. Sin í an bhean atá tinn.
Cá bhfuil an buachaill a ghlanann na fuinneoga?

T.C. Sin é an fear a mbuaileann Pól é gach lá.
Cá bhfuil an cailín a bhfeiceann Liam í chuile maidin.

T.T. Feicim an duine a bhfuil an t-airgead aige. (= ag a bhfuil an t-airgead)
Cailleadh an comharsa a mbuaileann Síle leis go rialta.

T.G. Sin é an sagart a bhfuil a theach mór.
Seo chugainn an bhean rialta a bhfuil a paidreacha ráite.


What is happening in the above examples?

In the T.A. (Nominative Case) the FC ‘a’ is followed by the independent (normal) form of the verb (an fhoirm neamhspleách), which normally takes a séimhiú.

In the other Cases the FC ‘a’ is followed by the dependent form of the verb (an fhoirm spleách). With regular verbs the only change is an urú.


AIMSIR FHÁISTINEACH .
The Future Tense follows the exact same rules as the Present Tense.



AIMSIR CHAITE.

T.A. Sin í an bhean a bhí tinn.
Cá bhfuil an buachaill a ghlan na fuinneoga?

T.C. Sin é an fear ar bhuail Pól é.
Cá bhfuil an cailín a bhfaca Liam í chuile maidin.

T.T. Feicim an duine a raibh an t-airgead aige. (= ag a raibh an t-airgead)
Cailleadh an comharsa ar bhuail Síle leis inné.

T.G. Sin é an sagart a ndeachaigh a theach trí thine.
Seo chugainn an bhean rialta a raibh a paidreacha ráite.


What is happening in the above examples?

In the T.A. (Nominative Case) the FC ‘a’ is followed by the independent (normal) form of the verb (an fhoirm neamhspleách), which normally takes a séimhiú.

In the other Cases the FC changes to ‘ar’. This does not apply to the six verbs that take ‘ní’ in the past tense. These six verbs take ‘a’ followed by the dependent form as follows:

a raibh
a ndúirt
a ndeachaigh
a ndearna
a bhfuair
a bhfaca


NEGATIVES
The negative form of ‘a’ is ‘nach’ (followed by an urú).
The negative form of ‘ar’ is ‘nár’ (followed by a séimhiú).

COMPARISON WITH FORMAL ENGLISH
T.A. The man who fell.
T.C. The girl whom I met.
T.T. The boy to whom I gave money.
T.G. The woman whose son loved complicated grammar.