Irish Translation Forum

The Goy from Japan wrote:
You certainly assume a lot without looking at what other people, including Woodie Guthrie have to say about that. He was never a card-carrying communist, not that he didn't want to be, but he didn't fit into any categories easily. And not all communists are internationalists. Some are nationalists and many are fascists.

yes i certainly assume a lot, but has no-one else here done that?

guthrie was indeed one of those grass root communists that are hard to categorize.
but the fact that he wrote this land is my land as an angry response to irving berlin's jingoistic god bless america may give us a clue to what he was driving at.
anyway guthrie himself claims to have joined the communist party in 1936, according to his biographer, joe klein. and certainly his adherence to the far from straight party line, from the popular front policy of 1935 to 1939, through the switch in policy after the signing of the non-aggression pact untill the invasion of russia in 1941 changed it again, and the american cp started to support the war effort, would seem to suggest this assertion was true.
a tenet, even of the stalinist school, of communism was an internationalist outlook, albeit a very russian one.
a very good friend of mine who was born in dublin was a member of the ira, the communist party, fought in the international brigades in spain, but had no compunction about joining the british merchant navy during the war, he saw it as another way to fight fascism, and not as any patriotic duty, or betrayal to his ideals.
from what i've read of guthrie and have read and heard from communists from this period that was pretty much the norm.
your assertion that communists can be nationalists and even fascists is a direct contradiction. that they can become fascists and nationalists is another thing, benito mussulini being the prime case in that period, but only after abandoning their communism. a charge which could incidentally be layed at stalin's door as well, but for the communist parties outside of russia internationalism was a fast precept.

but having said all that i agree that the only way we can really decide the best translation for this is to wait and see what the op himself had in mind wiith this phrase.

oh and i definitely agree with T2's emphatic suffix, no matter which word is used.

Caffler wrote:your assertion that communists can be nationalists and even fascists is a direct contradiction. that they can become fascists and nationalists is another thing, benito mussulini being the prime case in that period, but only after abandoning their communism. a charge which could incidentally be layed at stalin's door as well, but for the communist parties outside of russia internationalism was a fast precept.

That's what I was talking about. I also personally know too many people who were involved in communism who ended up being fascistic. Others went other directions - socialistic, anarchistic, etc. But I think you overgeneralise when you say that internationalism was a fast precept of communism outside Russia. Communism takes on many forms and in the time we are talking about, I don't think many of those people were necessarily non-patriotic Americans. From what I've understood, they wanted a better America through a change in polity. It was an unstable time. Reading Kenneth Rexroth's autobiography helped me to get a picture of the mindset of people from that time. He talks about that, how younger people he knew thought that the sentimentality of an older time was "corny". (paraphrase, sorry) In a similar light, it may be hard for us to know exactly what a person meant "back then". Even though Woody's song may have been a reaction of "God Bless America" it doesn't mean he wasn't talking about the country, just a different view of it.

And sure we all assume and overgeneralise at times. Much of the time it can be overlooked, but some of the time I think we need to be careful and clear about what we mean, myself included.

I think "Fallingfast" has left the building meself
Doesnt appreciate serious debate grammatical or otherwise
..it happens

Phiocfainn féin "tír" ach d'fhéadfadh muid an lá ar fad a chaitheamh ag cur is ag cúiteamh faoi. Ach, rud níos tábhachtaí ná sin, b'fhéidir; an cur chuige atá á úsáid thuas: "Sé an talamh seo bhur dtalamh...." nó "Sí an tír seo....". Tá cuma aisteach, nó béim aisteach (i gcomhthéacs an amhráin, ar a laghad), orthu siúd, dar liom. An chiall a bhainfinn astu ná "It's this land (as opposed to any other) that is your land" - agus ní dóigh liom gurb 'in a bhí i gceist. Dá mbeadh orm féin tabhairt faoi:

"This land is your land, this land is my land...
...This land was made for you and me."

Seans go mbainfinn triail as rud eicínt ar nós:

Is leat an tír seo, is liom an tír seo...
...Is linn uilig an tír seo eadrainn.

Hello Folks, I don't know if I can be of any help here or not - probably not, but that's never stopped me before.

My father, Woody Guthrie once said "I ain't a communist necessarily, but I've been in the red all my life."

He wrote for many left-wing newspapers and magazines, some communist, socialist and others not so easily defined ideologically. He wrote and sang for unions, schools, government projects, and for just about anyone who would listen to his thoughts. He was far too stubbornly individualistic for any organization to accept him, and demanded throughout his life to live as he pleased. He refused to sleep on beds believing it would make him 'soft' and not able to pick up and leave on a whim, which he often did. He'd go out for a pack of smokes and come back three months later after traveling around the country.

As far as 'this land' goes, it's important to remember that he grew up in Oklahoma 'Land of the 12 Civilized Tribes' and was undoubtably influenced by the Native American idea of 'land' and the ownership of it. It is still, to this day, one of the divides in cultural understanding between Native Americans and those of other origins.

As if someone could 'own' the wind, or the 'passage of time' - he and I share in the belief that the 'ownership of land' has caused more trouble for more people than just about any other crazy man-made invention. He lived his life as though it were an illusion to be avoided at all costs. Give him money, he'd give it to someone who had less. Give him a car, he'd leave it on the road when it ran out of gasoline. He gave away his clothes, his guitars, just about anything that would slow him down or burden him with 'things.'

He was, however not always consistent. He would claim that his songs could be used by anyone, anytime anywhere, but he also assigned copyrights to his material, and formally published his work.

My best guess is that he meant that 'the land' as in 'the world' belonged to everybody. He signed many thousands of his letters with his name and then wrote "This world is your world. Take it easy, but take it."

As he was primarily writing for an American audience he used the geography of the USA to make his point, but it could have been for anywhere. Again, this is not a political song partial to any ideology, but his practical understanding of the truth as he saw it.

Thank You - whomever it was who invited me to write here, and I apologize for having taken up a lot of space to say so little.

All the best,

Arlo Guthrie

Fascinating Arlo..Thank you
Could you name the 12 Civilized tribes of Oklahoma..as a non native resident I was told there were 5..Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Creek, and Seminole..12 Civilized Googles as 5 civilized tribes.

Just an Inquiring mind wanting to know

You're probably correct, and I've most likely got them confused with the 12 of everything else that comes in twelves.

Merryploughbhoy wrote:. An chiall a bhainfinn astu ná "It's this land (as opposed to any other) that is your land"

agus sin é an scéal féin atá i gceist, cad é an rud ab ail leis an guthrie a rá tríd an amhráin seo?
is liom is leat an tír seo agus tá tír eile ann go leosan....ní fhéidir liom san a fheiscint
...nó...is linn an domhan so, liom agus libh....ach ba fhearr a rá go bhfuil an domhan seo duinn toisc nach l'éinne an domhan ná an talamh ar bith.
is iomaí bua atá ag do mhiniú ach nílim ar aon intinn leat fé
ceist achrannach is ea é agus táim brúite leis anois ní dhearfad focal eile fé.

Haigh Arlo, a chara, this a standard greeting in Irish.

I belong to an Irish translation forum and we recently had a request to translate, This Land is Your Land. This request has sparked a discussion as to the meaning of your father's words. Knowing the meaning helps us to provide an accurate translation.

To view the discussion, please click on the web site below:

http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/tr ... 87624.html

If you can, would you please share what your father meant when he penned those words,

Thank-you for any help you may provide.

Kindest Regards,
Laurie aka Sassy Lassie
laurieds@umich.edu

Tá fáilte romhat a Arlo. You're welcome, Arlo.

Go raibh maith agat, Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Sassy Lassie

jays and there's a whole pile of posts while i was trying to answer mpb

[size=0]this is beginning to look like a bd post[/size]