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The pronunciation of a name.......?

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Post March 10 2008, 16:16 PM
Bearn
Laoch na nGael
 
Posts: 799
"I don't have any personal experience of how the name is actually pronounced (as opposed to how it "should" be pronounced in any given dialect)"

Well as I doubt it was continuously used into modern times, hence how it is 'supposed' to be pronounced with reference a name used all the time since the past is probably a mute point. Natives may just pronounce it as they see it or via some other source, if as I suspect, it was reintroduced as a name. Could be wrong of course.

As for the singer, she is singing in sean-nós style, where the vowel is still used, but I have not heard it beyond that. Pywll2 might have heard differently. Quiggin says it was going out among the young (in 1906!) in the the Blue Stacks.

The Oriel Gaeltacht is dead a while, so I dunno how she is a native (unless she is aging very slowly!) Quiggin did say the ao sound was more common down in Oriel (i.e. more robustly kept rather than falling in with í) than elsewhere in Ireland.

 
Post March 10 2008, 17:29 PM
Dun Chaochain
Laoch na nGael
 
Posts: 506
As people have pointed out, Aodhán is a diminiutive of Aodh. Although I don't know anyone personally with that name, I would pronounce it simply as Aodh (somewhat common) plus án. Hence:

Aodhán

Conamara: EE-awn

Ulster: EE-OO-awn.

Mind you, the most common form of Aodh in the Gaeltacht is, I think, Hiúdaí. Or at least, I think that Hiúdaí comes from Aodh!

Post March 10 2008, 18:05 PM
Redwolf
Ard-Banríon na Ráiméise
 
Posts: 57599
I didn't say she lived in a Gaeltacht...I said she's a native Irish speaker who grew up in Oriel. Not all native speakers live in the Gaeltachta:

http://www.irishsong.com/biography.html

Redwolf

Post March 10 2008, 19:42 PM
Pwyll2
Giostaire
 
Posts: 3070
Pádraigín Ni Uallachain's "A Stór is A Stóirín," listen to how she says "is do mháthairín le do thaobhsa" in the song 'Sé do bheatha, a naoi anocht (she is a native Irish speaker from Oriel)...


Taobh is pronounced tee-w or tüw (I use ü here for an unrounded oo sound) in Ulster. Young speakers would pronounce the lenited form, thaobh, almost as if it were "chíú", ie. with a slender ch sound at the beginning (it's a recent evolution I think: I don't think old speakers would pronounce like that). Anyway, the t is not slender in the non-lenited form.

About Pádraigín, she can't be a native speaker of Oriel Irish because that dialect is long dead and Pádraigín isn’t that old! And you clearly hear she's not a Gaeltacht speaker, especially in her first recordings (listen to her r's: they are as in English; in her latest recordings she pronounces them properly though).

On the site they say

She is from southeast Ulster and was born into an Irish speaking household.


Doesn't mean that her household spoke southeast Ulster Irish! (some people are raised up through Arabic by their parents in Paris, it doesn't mean that Paris is Arabic-speaking, you see).
According to her pronunciation in her earliest recordings, I'd say she may have been raised up through Irish by non-native speakers.


Aodhán

Conamara: EE-awn

Ulster: EE-OO-awn.


I don't think there are people who pronounce EE-OO-awn in Ulster, first of all, because dh is not pronounced oo at the middle of a word (it is only at the end of a word), and secondly, because in Ulster, people don't pronounce á as aw (and in Ulster unstressed vowels are always short): it's Connaught and Munster stuff. The "aw"-sound is the sound of the Ulster ó (when stressed and not beside a nasal consonant).

Aodhán in Ulster: EE-ahn, or Ü-ahn.
Is fearr Gaeilg chliste ná Gaeilg bhriste

Learn the sounds of Irish here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/i ... ounds.html & http://annexedicoirlfr.ifrance.com/

Post March 10 2008, 19:56 PM
W&AWolfe
New Arrival
 
Posts: 4
Thank you for all the input and useful info!

I just came across this and I wondered if this was basically the break down of it.

Name: Aidan
Pronounced: Al dan
Other forms: Aodhán, Aodán
Meaning: little fire

Name: Aodhán, Aodán
Pronounced: AW dawn

?????????????????????

I am not sure if that is right.......

Also if the name Aodhán or Aodán is used does the fada have to be used in the spelling of the name in order for it to be said as AW dawn?


Thank you all so much for your insight. :D

Post March 10 2008, 20:28 PM
Redwolf
Ard-Banríon na Ráiméise
 
Posts: 57599
Pwyll2 wrote:
Pádraigín Ni Uallachain's "A Stór is A Stóirín," listen to how she says "is do mháthairín le do thaobhsa" in the song 'Sé do bheatha, a naoi anocht (she is a native Irish speaker from Oriel)...


Taobh is pronounced tee-w or tüw (I use ü here for an unrounded oo sound) in Ulster. Young speakers would pronounce the lenited form, thaobh, almost as if it were "chíú", ie. with a slender ch sound at the beginning (it's a recent evolution I think: I don't think old speakers would pronounce like that). Anyway, the t is not slender in the non-lenited form.

About Pádraigín, she can't be a native speaker of Oriel Irish because that dialect is long dead and Pádraigín isn’t that old! And you clearly hear she's not a Gaeltacht speaker, especially in her first recordings (listen to her r's: they are as in English; in her latest recordings she pronounces them properly though).

On the site they say

She is from southeast Ulster and was born into an Irish speaking household.


Doesn't mean that her household spoke southeast Ulster Irish! (some people are raised up through Arabic by their parents in Paris, it doesn't mean that Paris is Arabic-speaking, you see).
According to her pronunciation in her earliest recordings, I'd say she may have been raised up through Irish by non-native speakers.


Aodhán

Conamara: EE-awn

Ulster: EE-OO-awn.


I don't think there are people who pronounce EE-OO-awn in Ulster, first of all, because dh is not pronounced oo at the middle of a word (it is only at the end of a word), and secondly, because in Ulster, people don't pronounce á as aw (and in Ulster unstressed vowels are always short): it's Connaught and Munster stuff. The "aw"-sound is the sound of the Ulster ó (when stressed and not beside a nasal consonant).

Aodhán in Ulster: EE-ahn, or Ü-ahn.


Why are you always looking for a fight? I said that Pádraigín is a native Irish speaker (which she is) from Ulster (which she is) and from Oriel (which she is). I did not claim that she lived in a Gaeltacht, nor did I claim that she spoke Oriel Irish. In fact, ALL I was doing was trying to demonstrate the vowel sound I was describing by referring to a NATIVE SPEAKER. I know that no one who has ever had an English-speaking person in their background counts as a native speaker in your eyes, but frankly, I couldn't give a damn.

I've pointed out before that your grasp of English phonics as pronounced in Standard American English is weak...the sound you offer is EXACTLY the sound I was describing. I know you're going to dispute that, and frankly, I don't give a damn about that either.

I'm getting heartily sick of this. This kind of nitpicking pedantry and arguing over minutiae is why I long ago stopped hanging out at Daltaí.com.

I'm going to take a break before I start quoting Father Jack Hackett.

Redwolf

Post March 10 2008, 20:39 PM
Christy Quinn.
Craiceáilte
 
Posts: 6024
Hi, I grew up in Dublin and the family next door had a son named Aidan.
So his name in Irish at school was Aodhán and it sounded like 'Ay dhawn' as in ' Donal ' in Sean O Casey's play. Hope this helps. I sat right next to him . I know this is only school 'Irish' but we played in Irish Language in the street. Sin sin.Christy.
Wait for more to be sure.
Quae Sursum volo videre.
The Mouth from the South.
An sean duine liath.

Post March 10 2008, 22:25 PM
Pwyll2
Giostaire
 
Posts: 3070
Why are you always looking for a fight? I said that Pádraigín is a native Irish speaker (which she is) from Ulster (which she is) and from Oriel (which she is).


Nope, you wrote this:

she is a native Irish speaker from Oriel


And this is not clear, and it looks like Bearn understood the very same thing as me!

In fact, ALL I was doing was trying to demonstrate the vowel sound I was describing by referring to a NATIVE SPEAKER.


Does she pronounced the "ao" as in old Donegal Irish in her songs? I don't remember hearing it in the songs I heard so far, but I may be mistaken.

I know that no one who has ever had an English-speaking person in their background counts as a native speaker in your eyes,


Have I ever said that? I said: those who have been raised up through Irish by non-native speakers can't be considered exactly as Gaeltacht speakers would be. Just because a non-native speaker almost never knows as much as a Gaeltacht native speaker. Same thing for their children.

I've pointed out before that your grasp of English phonics as pronounced in Standard American English is weak...the sound you offer is EXACTLY the sound I was describing.


What do you mean? That yous Americans pronounce "aw" as "ah" (ie. Irish stressed a) ? "Law" is pronounced [la] in the USA, really?

I'm getting heartily sick of this. This kind of nitpicking pedantry and arguing over minutiae


I don't think the basic sounds of Irish are minutiae, but maybe you don't give a damn for the basic of Irish too...

Sé ’n rud a chuireas isteach orm, that you often answer people even when you don't know the answer. When I dunno the answer to a question, I just don't answer, and when I'm not sure I say it.
You say "this is how people say in Donegal" while often nobody in Donegal would; your teacher said she had learnt Irish in SW Donegal so you believe all what she says is SW Donegal Irish; looks like much of what she says isn't (according to what you write); that's ok but just read books about SW Donegal (say, the book about Teelin, by H. Wagner, for instance) and then you'll see it's completely different from most of what you've learnt.

Hi, I grew up in Dublin and the family next door had a son named Aidan.
So his name in Irish at school was Aodhán and it sounded like 'Ay dhawn' as in ' Donal '


Aídán or Áedán are Old Irish or Middle Irish spellings. They were pronounced roughly: EYE-thaan (aa = long a) (according to Stifter's book).

Aodán looks like a blend of Modern and Old Irish.

The modern spelling is Aodhán, and pronounced EE-awn (Connemara), probably AY-awn (Munster; I'm not too sure what syllable they'd stress), and EE-ahn or Ü-ahn in Ulster.
Is fearr Gaeilg chliste ná Gaeilg bhriste

Learn the sounds of Irish here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/i ... ounds.html & http://annexedicoirlfr.ifrance.com/

Post March 11 2008, 2:56 AM
Bearn
Laoch na nGael
 
Posts: 799
So /ɯ/ still can be heard in Donegal, say in Gweedore? Interesting. It's not in the central belt of the Glenties, but I did not heard more than one person over 80. However, there is an obvious weakness there in comparison to Gweedore. The difference is obvious.

If so, I can pronounce it all the time to my hearts content. Along with alveolar thrill to tap grammatical lenition. Whho hu!

Post March 11 2008, 3:00 AM
The Goy from Japan
Craiceáilte
 
Posts: 5634
Bearn wrote:So /ɯ/ still can be heard in Donegal, say in Gweedore? Interesting. It's not in the central belt of the Glenties, but I did not heard more than one person over 80. However, there is an obvious weakness there in comparison to Gweedore. The difference is obvious.

If so, I can pronounce it all the time to my hearts content. Along with alveolar thrill to tap grammatical lenition. Whho hu!


This is extremely interesting from a sociological point of view.


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