Irish Translation Forum

November 28 2006, 1:54 AM

Seán a'Chóta wrote:
PeterM wrote:I am sorry if I offended you.

I'm not offended in the least. I was simply trying to clarify what language you are interested in.

As I pointed out in my first message, "Fliodhais" is modern Irish. If you are wedded to "Flidais", you should disregard my message.

Conversely, if you want a modern spelling and pronunciation, you should disregard "Flidais" and all reconstructions of how it may have been pronounced more than a thousand years ago when Old Irish was a spoken language.

As for the pronunciation of "Fliodhais", I suggested "flyu-ish" as an anglicised spelling. That is two syllables, from which it can be deduced that the "y" must a consonant and not a vowel. I failed to specify the stress, but both Redwold and Abigail have since done so (first syllable stressed, second syllable unstressed).

I like the brevity of Flidais, but Fliodhais is fine. Two of the pups I sold were named Festus and Maeve independent of each other. I have been interested in Ireland since I was a child, and was inspired to find a name of an Irish huntress for my pup, which led me to Flidais. I liked Flidais' description, but didn't have a clue on pronunciation. The very first use of my passport was to go to Ireland, so I knew enough to know that the pronunciation was probably completely different than it would be in English. I wanted to use an authentic Irish pronunciation. Old or modern? Don't really care -- whichever has a "catchier" sound to it!

Thanks for your input!
- Peter

November 28 2006, 3:00 AM

Redwolf wrote:I'm an American as well (as is Abigail)

Lámhach! Tá mo chover blowáilte!

Peter, here's a page that might help:
http://www.soundsofenglish.org/pronunciation/th.html
If you scroll down to the bottom, there are sound files illustrating the two sounds we're talking about.

November 28 2006, 3:13 AM

PeterM wrote:I always pronounce the "th" in thin or think, and as far as I can remember, everyone else does that I can think of.

Of course you pronounce them, but I seriously doubt that you voice them. If you do, I'm sure linguists would want to study you.

Voiced: the, then, than, though, thy, that, there
Unvoiced: thin, think, through, thorough, thing, thought, thaw

When you pronounce a voiced "th", you can feel the vibration between your tongue and your teeth.

November 28 2006, 8:54 AM

Aibigéal and mhwombat -

Phonetically you are out of my league!

Thanks again!
- Peter

November 28 2006, 9:02 AM

I think I can explain it better by using different letters as examples. I bet you don't pronounce "bus" and "buzz" the same way. The letters "z" and "s" are almost exactly alike, except that one is voiced, and one isn't. Say "buzz buzz buzzzzzzzz". Feel the vibration? That's what we mean by "voiced".

buzz has a voiced sound at the end.
bus has an unvoiced sound at the end.

Similarly, "f" and "v" are alike, except for voicing:

van has a voiced sound at the beginning.
fan has an unvoiced sound at the beginning.

November 29 2006, 1:48 AM

mhwombat wrote:I think I can explain it better by using different letters as examples. I bet you don't pronounce "bus" and "buzz" the same way. The letters "z" and "s" are almost exactly alike, except that one is voiced, and one isn't. Say "buzz buzz buzzzzzzzz". Feel the vibration? That's what we mean by "voiced".

buzz has a voiced sound at the end.
bus has an unvoiced sound at the end.

Similarly, "f" and "v" are alike, except for voicing:

van has a voiced sound at the beginning.
fan has an unvoiced sound at the beginning.

Those I get! No problem there.

My spoken language tends to be a bit sloppy, so I asked my girl friend that is very anal about grammar, vocabulary, and pronunciation of (American) English, and she doesn't think there is a difference between the pronunciation of any of those "th" words. In any case, the subtlety of the different "th"s is beyond me. Also, a quick look in Webster's Unabbridged Dictionary does not show any difference. I'm baffled, but that is OK. I'll try to discern the spoken difference with a couple of other friends.

Thanks for the help!
- Peter

November 29 2006, 2:07 AM

When you're asking people about this, a good pair of words to have them try is "thy" and "thigh." To me those sound exactly the same, except for the voiced and unvoiced th's; it's easier to focus in on the sound you're looking for if the rest of the word is exactly identical.

November 29 2006, 6:21 AM

Good one, Aibi! I was racking my brain tring to think of two words that were alike except for voiced/unvoiced th.

November 29 2006, 6:38 AM

PeterM wrote:My spoken language tends to be a bit sloppy, so I asked my girl friend that is very anal about grammar, vocabulary, and pronunciation of (American) English, and she doesn't think there is a difference between the pronunciation of any of those "th" words. In any case, the subtlety of the different "th"s is beyond me. Also, a quick look in Webster's Unabbridged Dictionary does not show any difference. I'm baffled, but that is OK. I'll try to discern the spoken difference with a couple of other friends.

Thanks for the help!
- Peter

You might double-check that they're not putting "th" in italics to indicate the voiced sound, and using a non-italic typeface for an unvoiced sound.

dictionary.com unabridged wrote:[th] thirsty, nothing, math
[th] this, mother, breathe

American Heritage online does the same. The online Mirriam-Webster uses an underline th to indicate the voiced sound, but perhaps they use something different in the print version, because you probably would have noticed an underline.

November 29 2006, 7:03 AM

PeterM, I just realised I'm being a bit presumptuous in insisting that you do pronounce those differently. Perhaps they are pronounced the same in your dialect. May I ask what state you and your girlfriend grew up in? And would your speech be influenced by any particular cultural heritage, e.g. Italian-American or German-American? Don't answer if you don't want to, it's just curiousity on my part.

I've been reading through dialect surveys, hoping to find an area where no distinction is made between those sounds, and to announce, in Henry Higgins fashion, "Aha! You grew up on the North side of Elm Street in Anytown, and your maternal grandmother was Swedish." But no luck yet. Oh well.

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