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Post August 09 2005, 22:03 PM
Redwolf
Ard-Banríon na Ráiméise
 
Posts: 57599
mcrellin wrote:ill see, but i dont think im misinterpreting the 'no' for 'na'. i posted it as "BUAIDH NABAS" because it is written exactly like that (all capital letters) on the sketch. perhaps the person who did the original sketch misinterpreted it?


I think we have to assume that the person who did the sketch made a mistake. If nothing else, the "na/no" is going to be a separate word from the "bas."

Have you tried searching for examples of this crest on-line?

Redwolf

 
Post August 09 2005, 22:05 PM
macfhionn
Laoch na nGael
 
Posts: 642
I've checked one or two Scots Gaelic dictionaries, & "na" is an obsolete form of "no" (or "neo") meaning English "or".

In Irish of course "ná" (with accent) means "or" in negative sentences. For example, De Bhaldraithe gives "Níl mac ná iníon aige" and "Ní dhearna sé maith ná olc dom" etc.
Thoir seachad biadh an-asgaidh gach là air-loidhne (Donate food for free daily on-line) http://www.thehungersite.com

Post August 09 2005, 22:10 PM
mcrellin
Anseo again
 
Posts: 12
ive tried searching for a copy of my crest for years on the internet. unfortunatly almost all of the sites that produce good leads are pay-sites and the one example i have seen for free looks nothing like what i have. as i said my family has researched our family for decades and sometime back in the 40's my great uncle sketched what i have from the IOM heraldry.

Post August 09 2005, 22:15 PM
Redwolf
Ard-Banríon na Ráiméise
 
Posts: 57599
I think, from what Macfhionn said, that we can conclude that it's definitely Scottish and that the "na" should definitely be separate from the word following it (that bit is probably a mistake). Beyond that, I'm not sure how to help you. I definitely wouldn't advise using any of the pay services, as they are only in business to make money, and will sell you just about any heraldic device they think you'll buy (my husband was amused, once to have been offered a coat of arms for our surname..."Nickel." Since the Nickels are, and have been for centuries, German peasants and pacifists (the name is Mennonite), the likelihood of them ever having had a coat of arms is highly unlikely! :lach: )

I know it's a slog, but the next step is probably more geneological research. For one thing, you're going to have to ascertain if you're descended in direct line (first-born son to first-born son) from the original person who was awarded those arms to ascertain if they actually belong to your branch of the family (contrary to popular belief, arms were awarded to individuals, not to families, and were only passed on from father to first-born son), and in the course of that, you may discover more about the coat of arms itself.

Redwolf

Post August 09 2005, 22:17 PM
mcrellin
Anseo again
 
Posts: 12
so "ná" in Irish does translate to "or"? so Buaidh ná bás could be Victory or Death in Irish or Buaidh na bas could be Scotish? Sorry, im getting confused...though im sure im not helping very much.
again, thanks to all those helping.

Post August 09 2005, 22:25 PM
mcrellin
Anseo again
 
Posts: 12
sorry about that last post...i typed it before i read your last post Redwolf.
gotcha. :wink:

Post August 09 2005, 22:26 PM
wdsci
Aistritheoir Cíocrach
 
Posts: 19066
Only in negative sentences. You can think of it more like "nor," as in the example macfhionn gave: Níl mac ná iníon aige = "He has neither a daughter nor a son." The Irish for "victory or death" is still bua nó bás. It appears that your crest is using the obsolete Scottish form of "or" = na.

:) David
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Post August 09 2005, 22:27 PM
macfhionn
Laoch na nGael
 
Posts: 642
I confused matters by introducing negative sentences. Sorry.

I am pretty sure it is Scottish Gaelic & was probably originally "Buaidh na Bàs". What we are saying is that in contemporary Scottish Gaelic this would be written "Buaidh no Bàs".

Also, though Manx has a different spelling system now, it was once part of the Scottish Gaelic ""Kingdom of the Isles", and the symbol of the Lordship of the Isles was the "Birlinn" (Viking longship).

Finally, have you considered the name "Rellin" in your research? When Manx names became anglicised they sometimes dropped the "ma" of "mac" & the "c" became the first letter of the English form.
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Post August 09 2005, 22:29 PM
mcrellin
Anseo again
 
Posts: 12
OK, so i think weve asertained that its of Scottish gaelic descent. can it be capitalized as in Buaidh Ná Bás? and the accent marks would go in the opposite direction?

Post August 09 2005, 22:34 PM
macfhionn
Laoch na nGael
 
Posts: 642
If it is Scottish it should be spelt either "Buaidh no Bàs" (contemporary) or "Buaidh na Bàs" (bearing in mind that it includes an obsolete spelling of the conjunction)

Whether you capitalize "na" is the same question as whether to capitalize the "or" in "Victory or Death". I wouldn't. But maybe its just a stylistic matter.
Thoir seachad biadh an-asgaidh gach là air-loidhne (Donate food for free daily on-line) http://www.thehungersite.com


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