Irish Translation Forum

Cymro-Breatnach wrote:

Kamara wrote:Thanks everyone I really appreciate all the input. You guys are great.
I knew in the real world Sire is usually gender specific for a male. But in writing fiction and horror, in the vampire genre, a Sire can be male or female. The correct usage of the word Sire within the genre is accepted by the readers as pertaining to both genders.

Who started that?

Yeah, you have to wonder. It doesn't make much sense. In the real world, "sire" isn't "usually" specific for a male...it's ALWAYS specific for a male. It's directly interchangeable with the word "father"...we just don't tend to use it as much for humans these days because "father" is a more emotionally charged word. A female can't be a "sire" to a child, anymore than a man can be a "dam" or a "mother"...it makes no linguistic sense at all.

Redwolf

Sorry Redwolf, I should have been more specific. When I said in the real world its usually male, well it usually is. But if someone is participating in LARP (live action role play) and RPG (role playing games) Sire is still used to describe both. If someone is role playing and calls the other person an elf we all know thats its not really true but within the limits of the RPG it is the character the person assumes.
Many things in fantasy/horror genre can be stretched to the limits of imagination. Something that might help is to watch the series the Kindred (old tv series) was released to DVD and video. I believe WhiteWolf (a company thats written Vampire the Masquerade amongst other games) coined the term or at least made it well known.
Within the limits of the genre I hate to repeat myself, its an accepted term regardless of what linguists might think. Im merely trying to get the right phrases for my book which is going to be horror/fantasy, if I were writing non-fiction it would be a different matter.
I may drop the word Sire with that character and just have him call her 'beloved' or something similiar, since the person who transformed him is female.
Thanks for letting me view this from all sides it helps my writing a lot

Penelle

hehe I remember WhiteWolf games...do ya know "Changeling"
That was a good read!

Kamara wrote:Sorry Redwolf, I should have been more specific. When I said in the real world its usually male, well it usually is. But if someone is participating in LARP (live action role play) and RPG (role playing games) Sire is still used to describe both. If someone is role playing and calls the other person an elf we all know thats its not really true but within the limits of the RPG it is the character the person assumes.
Many things in fantasy/horror genre can be stretched to the limits of imagination. Something that might help is to watch the series the Kindred (old tv series) was released to DVD and video. I believe WhiteWolf (a company thats written Vampire the Masquerade amongst other games) coined the term or at least made it well known.
Within the limits of the genre I hate to repeat myself, its an accepted term regardless of what linguists might think. Im merely trying to get the right phrases for my book which is going to be horror/fantasy, if I were writing non-fiction it would be a different matter.
I may drop the word Sire with that character and just have him call her 'beloved' or something similiar, since the person who transformed him is female.
Thanks for letting me view this from all sides it helps my writing a lot

Penelle

And what I'm saying is that "usually" isn't the correct term. It ALWAYS AND WITHOUT EXCEPTION REFERS TO A MALE PARENT AND HAS NEVER, EVER HAD ANY OTHER MEANING in the real world. My guess is that whoever made up this fantasy world was simply ignorant of what the word meant, and now everyone who's into that particular fantasy world is doomed to repeat it (sigh!). Lord knows it wouldn't be the first time, especially with computer games.

Yes, I'd drop it entirely rather than perpetuate it.

Redwolf

Méabh wrote:hehe I remember WhiteWolf games...do ya know "Changeling"
That was a good read!

Actually most of what I know is from friends that LARP and RPG those games Ive never read their stuff beyond a surface read of the first VTM. :)
I know they came out with something new recently, someone mentioned it on another forum I frequent.

Penelle

Redwolf wrote:
And what I'm saying is that "usually" isn't the correct term. It ALWAYS AND WITHOUT EXCEPTION REFERS TO A MALE PARENT AND HAS NEVER, EVER HAD ANY OTHER MEANING in the real world. My guess is that whoever made up this fantasy world was simply ignorant of what the word meant, and now everyone who's into that particular fantasy world is doomed to repeat it (sigh!). Lord knows it wouldn't be the first time, especially with computer games.

Yes, I'd drop it entirely rather than perpetuate it.

Redwolf

Redwolf, I didnt mean to upset you. If my post did so, then I apologize. Sometimes I come off a little snarky or bit*hy. But if words always meant just what the dictionary said, then we wouldnt have slang. Language is not immune to changes and new interpretations, almost all language and its meaning changes over time. The word "Fag" means something entirely different in the US than the UK.
Not to argue the point, but Sire is also used to address one's King. Although one could say that perhaps they saw the King as a "male parent" of his kingdom. I would have to research why the term was used as such. Ive had limited experience with personally playing LARP and RPG games as I'm older and not exactly the "video game" generation. But Im not wholly ignorant of what they entail because I have a lot of younger friends who do play and even older friends who play.
Yes I would rather drop it rather than perpetuate it. Personally Ive never liked the terms and a lot of similiar ones that go with it. I was really trying to get around using the word in the first place.

Penelle

The term "sire" in reference to a king was a play on its basic meaning as "father"...the king stood in a relationship to the country not dissimilar to the relationship a father had with his family, and one called him "sire" to acknowledge that relationship. Even in regards to royalty, it's never been used for female monarchs...it's always been an exclusively male term.

Language changes, yes. But natural language changes happen gradually, and as a result of the popular use of a word to mean a certain thing...not as a result of a small group of people who are either ignorant of a word's meaning or who have decided to redefine it, in the face of all reason, to suit their own ends.

Redwolf

I think it's entirely appropriate for a community to take a word and twist its meaning to fit their own needs. What about "queer" as in your favorite TV show?

I see no reason why a vampire can't call the one who made him a vampire his "sire" regardless of the person's gender. People call God "Father" even though He did not impregnate their mothers -- rather, God is seen as taking the active role in bringing about life and creation, the way people believed that it was the man's seed planted in the woman's passive womb that led to conception.

So, I would say that a vampire biting and draining and giving back to drink the blood of his victim in order to turn that person into a vampire would be taking an active role in the creation of a new kind of life (or unlife or whatever). Both male and female vampires can make other vampires, and so I think both a male or female vampire could be a "sire."

Whether that can be translated into Irish, however, is another story.

oisin718 wrote:I think it's entirely appropriate for a community to take a word and twist its meaning to fit their own needs. What about "queer" as in your favorite TV show?

Big difference there. The word "queer" was no longer a part of common usage under its former meaning, at least not in America (can't speak for England or Ireland, but then I also don't know how widely "queer" might be used to refer to guys who prefer partners of their own gender in those places either. It's actually not all that widely used here on the West Coast, though that seems to be changing). Same thing with "gay" (as I told my mom the last time she grumbled about "not being able to use the word "gay" to mean "happy" anymore: "C'mon mom...that word hasn't been a part of everyday speech since before you were born. When have you EVER used "gay" to mean "happy" outside of a Christmas carol, hmmm?") Can't say the same thing for "sire"...it's very much an everyday part of the language. Add to that the fact that the root meaning of the word "queer" wasn't changed to make it mean the opposite...it was, in fact, embraced (the very fact that "queer" means "different" is WHY the gay community adopted it, from what I understand). That's actually a very natural part of the evolution of language. It's not like they just plucked a word out of thin air and said "We know this doesn't mean what we want it to mean, but hey, we like the way it rolls off the tongue" and it's not like they've actually CHANGED the meaning so much as embraced it.

I'll tell you what...the day a female can actually sire a child, I'll admit that "sire" can be applied to a female. As far as what a vampire does to make another vampire, I can think of lots of words that would make one heck of a lot more sense than "sire".

Lord, the tangents that happen here, eh?

Now here's a curiousity...how does one refer to the "sire" or "dam" of an animal in Irish? Does one use "athair" and "máthair"? I'm sure there's a kennel club in Ireland...what do they use on their registration certificates, does anyone know? That's another thing about the word "sire"...it very much implies an emotional distance in English (I actually used to refer to my biological parents as my "sire" and "dam," but that really freaked my mom out, so I stopped!).

Redwolf

I would reckon that vampires would call each other whatever they wanted, regardless of what language purists or grammar mavens have to say!