Irish Translation Forum

June 15 2012, 13:09 PM

A chairde,

I notice in FGB that there is the code v.t. & v.i. beisde various verbs which denotes that the werb can be used both transitively and intrans.

How do you know if a verb is transitive or instrans in Irish?

June 15 2012, 14:53 PM

A verb is transitive if it has a direct object.
And it is intransitive if it doesn't.
Most verbs can be used transitively and intransitively.
Some can only be used one way or the other.

He hit the ball - transitive.
He hit out at the ball - intransitive

In the first sentence the ball is the direct object of the verb so the verb is transitive.
In the second sentence the ball is the indirect object separated from the verb by the preposition at so it is intransitive.

June 18 2012, 21:39 PM

You mentioned prepositions, but does the same apply to adverbs?

Cuir isteach ar dhuine - Chuir sé isteach orm.

Is this sentence transitive or intransitive?
(Chuir) (sé) isteach (orm)
(Chuir) (sé) as (dom)
(He) (annoyed) (me)

I think it's the adverbs/prepositions in Irish that confuse me as to whether a verb is trans/intrans. With a lack of out-and-out verbs, Irish needs to have greim an fhir bháite on the adverbs/preps to create more verbs, but this is exactly where I get confused!

Also the question of adverbs & preps becomes more confusing when their position in the sentence is quite loose and can seemingly change at will:
Chuir mé isteach lá maith oibre.
Chuir mé lá maith oibre isteach.

June 19 2012, 0:14 AM

What Gealún told you is correct, but it might be better to think of it this way:
-- a transitive verb has a direct object, which is the "receiver of the action of the verb", as some teachers put it, whereas
-- an intransitive verb does not have a direct object (it may or may not have an indirect object)

To use some baseball sayings:
He picked up the bat = transitive (the bat is the direct object, receiving the action)
He waited on deck = intransitive (no direct object, just info re location)
He went to bat = intransitive (still no direct object - "to bat" is a verb in the infinitive)
He hit the ball = transitive (the ball is the direct object, receiving the action)
He swung the bat and missed the ball = (two transitive verbs, each with its own direct object)
He struck out = intransitive (no direct object taking the action)

FGB says that the verb cuir can be transitive and intransitive. I may be missing something, but I can't think of a situation in which it would be intransitive. If you look at the examples offered in FGB, even the various idioms, all of them are X a chur (= "to [put/do/whatever] X"), and the prepositional phrases that go with some of them don't really change anything. It may be that, as translated into English, some of the expressions would be intransitive (I didn't read through them all), given the differences between the languages, but in Irish they all look transitive to me.

A truly intransitive expression in Irish would be something like:
léim sé
he jumped

compare that with:
léim sé an fál
he jumped the fence
which is transitive in both languages

June 19 2012, 19:37 PM

Bhí sé ag cur (fearthainne)
Bhí sé ag cur thairis
Bhí an cupán ag cur thar maoil

Are these instances of intransitive usages of 'cuir'?

I've rethought one of my statements 'Also the question of adverbs & preps becomes more confusing when their position in the sentence is quite loose and can seemingly change at will'. A lot of the time the adverb cannot be moved from it's position directly beside the verb.

Bhuail sé isteach chugam/*Bhuail sé chugam isteach* - He called in to see me (intransitive?)
Chuir mé isteach sa charr é/*Chuir mé é sa charr isteach* - I put it in the car (isteach isn't needed here, but can still be used) (intransitive - the sentence needs the preposition 'i' to make sense)
Chuir mé an leanbh amach chun na scoile / *Chuir mé an leanbh chun na scoile amach* - I sent the child to school

Also if you look at the entry 'buail síos' it says that they are only transitive, but it only gies the following examples:
buail síos le do chos é = beat it down with your foot.
buaileadh síos leis na scoilteacha é = he was laid low, incapacitated, with rheumatism.
Tá sé buailte síos le fada = he has been bedridden a long time.
buaileadh síos an bád = the boat was launched.

Dúirt mé suas lena bhéal é - this is transitive, no matter whether the adverb 'suas' is there or not?

I would have thought, however that the opposite was the case, except the last example, which I presume is transitive - bhuail (sé) síos an bád
Am I wrong in thinking that the others are intransitive in that there is no direct object- I'm seriously confused agus níl scamaill na doiléireachta ar bhruach a scaipthe go fóill beag!

I presume that the adverbs and prepositions in Irish don't affect whether or not a verb is trans/intrans, as they are so closely linked with the verb, like 'He picked up the bat'

June 19 2012, 20:44 PM

I don't think you understand the difference yet between transitive and intransitive. Wikipedia has a good articleon it at this link, which also explains more about some of the examples you gave: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intransitive_verb

Bhí sé ag cur (fearthainne)
Bhí sé ag cur thairis
Bhí an cupán ag cur thar maoil

Are these instances of intransitive usages of 'cuir'?
No, cuir is not the main verb there -- bhí is. Cuir is used there in a verbal noun expression, analogous (though not identical) to a present participle or gerund.

I've rethought one of my statements 'Also the question of adverbs & preps becomes more confusing when their position in the sentence is quite loose and can seemingly change at will'. A lot of the time the adverb cannot be moved from it's position directly beside the verb.

Bhuail sé isteach chugam/*Bhuail sé chugam isteach* - He called in to see me (intransitive?)
Yes. Compare Chonaic sé mé = He saw me, which is transitive.

Chuir mé isteach sa charr é/*Chuir mé é sa charr isteach* - I put it in the car (isteach isn't needed here, but can still be used) (intransitive - the sentence needs the preposition 'i' to make sense)
No. Chuir mé = I put, and é is the direct object, so it is a transitive use of cuir.

Chuir mé an leanbh amach chun na scoile / *Chuir mé an leanbh chun na scoile amach* - I sent the child to school
Again, transitive. Chuir mé -= I sent. What did I send? The child.

Also if you look at the entry 'buail síos' it says that they are only transitive, but it only gives the following examples:

buail síos le do chos é = beat it down with your foot.
Transitive. This is the imperative/command form, but there is a direct object: Beat down what? It (the direct object).

buaileadh síos leis na scoilteacha é = he was laid low, incapacitated, with rheumatism.
Use of the saorbhriathar is like the passive in English (though not exactly the same).
See the article I cited re passivity and transitivity.

Tá sé buailte síos le fada = he has been bedridden a long time.
The verb here is the intransitive tá -- buailte is a past participle.

buaileadh síos an bád = the boat was launched.
The saorbhriathar again -- see above

Dúirt mé suas lena bhéal é - this is transitive, no matter whether the adverb 'suas' is there or not?
Yes. the direct object is é. In Irish sé even changes form to é to show that it is the object (nouns used to as well, and still do in some other languages).

I would have thought, however that the opposite was the case, except the last example, which I presume is transitive - bhuail (sé) síos an bád
Am I wrong in thinking that the others are intransitive in that there is no direct object- I'm seriously confused agus níl scamaill na doiléireachta ar bhruach a scaipthe go fóill beag!

I presume that the adverbs and prepositions in Irish don't affect whether or not a verb is trans/intrans, as they are so closely linked with the verb, like 'He picked up the bat'

June 19 2012, 21:19 PM

dall wrote:Bhí sé ag cur (fearthainne)
Bhí sé ag cur thairis
Bhí an cupán ag cur thar maoil

Are these instances of intransitive usages of 'cuir'?

I've rethought one of my statements 'Also the question of adverbs & preps becomes more confusing when their position in the sentence is quite loose and can seemingly change at will'. A lot of the time the adverb cannot be moved from it's position directly beside the verb.

Bhuail sé isteach chugam/*Bhuail sé chugam isteach* - He called in to see me (intransitive?)
Chuir mé isteach sa charr é/*Chuir mé é sa charr isteach* - I put it in the car (isteach isn't needed here, but can still be used) (intransitive - the sentence needs the preposition 'i' to make sense)
Chuir mé an leanbh amach chun na scoile / *Chuir mé an leanbh chun na scoile amach* - I sent the child to school

Also if you look at the entry 'buail síos' it says that they are only transitive, but it only gies the following examples:
buail síos le do chos é = beat it down with your foot.
buaileadh síos leis na scoilteacha é = he was laid low, incapacitated, with rheumatism.
Tá sé buailte síos le fada = he has been bedridden a long time.
buaileadh síos an bád = the boat was launched.

Dúirt mé suas lena bhéal é - this is transitive, no matter whether the adverb 'suas' is there or not?

I would have thought, however that the opposite was the case, except the last example, which I presume is transitive - bhuail (sé) síos an bád
Am I wrong in thinking that the others are intransitive in that there is no direct object- I'm seriously confused agus níl scamaill na doiléireachta ar bhruach a scaipthe go fóill beag!

I presume that the adverbs and prepositions in Irish don't affect whether or not a verb is trans/intrans, as they are so closely linked with the verb, like 'He picked up the bat'

I wouldn't get bogged down in this transitive/intransitive stuff it doesn't make a scrap of difference to how you form a sentence. Learn the verbs, their forms and how to use them, and your time will be far better rewarded.

June 21 2012, 9:51 AM

Thanks for all the help.

In trying to learn the principles behind it, I've tried to work out some sentences for myself - any advice would be seriously welcomed!

Baineadh oscailt as a bhéal le pian
vs.
Bhain sé oscailt as a bhéal

The first one, with use of the saorbhriathar is intransitive? The second one is transitive, with oscailt being the direct object of 'bain'? Or am I totally wrong?!

I suppose the thing that was confusing me the most was that a verb can still be transitive if there is an adverb/preposition as these can be an intrinsic part of the verb.
Chaith sé amach an mála- transitive, mála being the direct object of 'caith amach'
Chuaigh sé amach ar tír mór - prepositional phrase 'amach ar tír mór'

Sin é a deir na húdair - transitive? -is é sin a deir na húdair/ deir na húdair é sin?

Cad a déarfá le deoch? - intransitive?

Dúirt mé liom féin gurbh fhearr dom fanacht sa bhaile - intransitive? cén cineál clasáil é sin. aidiachtach - (fearr)?

Dúirt sé a raibh le rá aige - transitive or intransitive?

Rud ar bith adeir seisean tá sé ceart! - intransitive- 'tá rud ar bith a deir seisean ceart'

Bhain sé liomóg asam - transitive

Mura miste dom a rá - intransitive
D'agair siad orm éirí as an tobac - transitive + verbal phrase (éirí as an tobac)
Bhain mé díom mo hata - transitive - hata is direct object of 'bain de'

Bhain sé an doras díom, he got to the door before me. I'm confused with this one!

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Verbs: transitive & intransitive

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