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A translation for Seachran Charn Tsiail! - revisited

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Post October 28 2010, 23:13 PM
Mildir
New Arrival
 
Posts: 3
MODERATOR'S NOTE: This thread has been split from one that was considered too old to resurrect (http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/tr ... 27022.html).

Seachrán Charn Tsiail = The wanderer of Carn Tsiail

Ar mo tharraingt siar go Carn tSiail dom,
go haonach bliantúil n’ Féil' Muire Mó,
tharla a'n ainnir as an taobh aniar dom,
is í go cianmhar 'gabháil tharam sa ród.
Dar liom féin, ó, gur scar mo chiall uaim,
mar bheinn ag siabhrán nó seal ag ól.
Chonacthas domhsa gur dhorcha an ghrian gheal
le taobh 'ach dealramh 'raibh ina grua mar rós.


While withdrawing me to Carn tSiail,
to St.Mary major festival's yearly fair,
a young girl happened to come from the west beside me,
and she was silently passing over me on the street.
O, it seems to me right to be gone off my head,
as if I were dazed or I had long drunk.
The bright sun seemed to me to be dark
beside all the rosy sheen that was in her cheeks.

Note: Pay attention to every single word of the Gaelic, as we have here some little known idiomatic expressions.
E.g.: "is í go cianmhar 'gabháil tharam sa ród" = "is í go cianmhar a bhí ag gabháil tharam sa ród" = "Agus bhí sí go cianmhar ag gabháil tharam sa ród".
E.g.: "ar mo [verbal noun]" = "While [I am/was][doing sthg.]"

At any rate, at the N.U.I. they have the correct translation and I've been studying such traditional songs for a long while.
There are always two or three of them whose english version is not so widespread... :wink:

Ach 's féidir liom cabhrú libhse. :wink:
So, more to follow (Tá sé déanach, ro-dhéanach cibé níos mó le dhéanamh !)

Feicfidh mé 'rís sibh amaireach !
Last edited by Breandán on October 29 2010, 10:58 AM, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Explaining split.

 
Post October 29 2010, 0:19 AM
Redwolf
Ard-Banríon na Ráiméise
 
Posts: 57599
Thank you for replying so thoroughly to this, Mildir. That will surely be of use to someone who comes searching for this song at some point.

This is a really old thread, though (from 2005), and the original requester is long gone, so I'll lock it to keep it from being bumped back up to the top again.

Redwolf

Post October 29 2010, 6:55 AM
Breandán
Giostaire
 
Posts: 4409
Some corrections to the Irish:

Ar mo tharraingt siar go Carn tSiail dom,
go haonach bliantúil n’ Féil' Muire Mór,
tharla an ainnir as an taobh aniar dom,
is í go cianmhar 'gabháil tharam sa ród.
Dar liom féin, ó, gur scar mo chiall uaim,
mar bheinn ag siabhrán nó seal ag ól.
Chonacthas domhsa gur dhorcha an ghrian gheal
le taobh 'ach dealramh 'raibh ina grua mar rós.


Here's how I would tweak the English:

Upon my drawing west to Carn tSiail,
to the annual fair of the feast of St.Mary,
the young girl coming from the west happened upon me ,
and she was melancholy as she passed me on the road.
It seemed to me that my senses had left me,
as if I were dazed or I had been drinking for a spell.
It looked to me as if the bright sun had darkened
beside all the radiance that was in her rosy cheek.

Post October 29 2010, 14:47 PM
Mildir
New Arrival
 
Posts: 3
Dear Breandán, the translation would not be mine. I'm taking it from a booklet of an irish folklore N.U.I. study...
I just knew the first "Téarma" by heart, so, I reported it here entirely...
As far as there are a few different versions of the song, the Gaelic text is ok, I don't know about different versions but:

go haonach bliantúil n’ Féil' Muire Mór,
> That would be right "Mó" and translated "Major", not just "big" or anything of the sort.
What I know and can tell you is that somewhere they use "Mó" instead of "Móire" as a simpler comparative pattern, that woudn't happen in common Gaelic of course...

tharla an ainnir as an taobh aniar dom,

Yea, I know this is a problem, how come some lyrics don't put any sort of signal for the vowel contraction I don't know but I remember it was < a'n > in the original text, and < a'n > comes from the original form < aon >.
So, the translation would be "a girl" and in Gaelic this "aon" stresses the importance of that very girl, otherwise they just say the word, without the need of an article...

Coming to the English...

Upon my drawing west to Carn tSiail,


Of course "Siar" would mean "Westwards" if you let it alone...
But here we have a word made up of two elements, that is "Tarraingt siar" and it means "Withdrawal".
Also "Tarraingt siar" can be a verbal noun as a whole. This verbal noun represents a verb, whose meaning is "To withdraw" (actually concerning position) , that means that if I say "Tarraingeann mé siar" I'm saying "I withdraw" without any extra info on where I am withdrawing what.
I know it's incredible, also hard to find something about this verbal noun on-line, but just give a look here:
http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=tarraingt+siar

So, if we say "Tarraingeann mé siar dom (or < domh > as they usually say in Donegal) go..." we are saying "I withdraw myself to...", whereas this "dom" can stay at the end of the phrase as well.
So:
"Ar mo tharraingt siar go [somewhere] dom" would rather be translated "While ( = in the time in which) [I am/was] withdrawing me".
Gaelic gives "to me" whereas English gives just the accusative.

It seemed to me that my senses had left me,

Now, literally "gur scar mo chiall uaim" would mean "that my ciall parted from me".
Remember "ciall" has several meanings, by this word you can mean "sense", "significance", "the meaning of a word", but also "wisdom" or "mental sanity".
However, by this sentence, they don't literally mean that one's sense has left him/her, rather they mean that one's mental sanity has left them.
So "gur scar mo chiall uaim" = "that my mental sanity has left me" = "that I'm gone off my head"

Last thing for the moment: "mar rós" is referred to "dealramh" EVEN if it's placed after "grua"

I have to go now and am going to update the topic later, with the rest of the song.

PS You will see the sense of that "to be gone off my head" when reading the second Téarma :)

Post October 29 2010, 14:58 PM
Redwolf
Ard-Banríon na Ráiméise
 
Posts: 57599
Smaoineamh maith, an teachtaireacht seo a scaradh ón seanábhar, a Bhreandáin!

Redwolf

Post October 29 2010, 15:22 PM
CaoimhínSF
Craiceáilte
 
Posts: 5554
I'm in no position to give them the scholarly analysis which Mildir did, but here are the three other verses of the song in the version I have, along with the translations which came with them:

Bheannaigh féin le preab don mhaighdean,
agus easpa céille ní raibh i mo ghlór.
D’fhiafraigh mé féin dí ‘raibh aon fhear in Éirinn
a ghlacfadh sí de rogha orm in sa ród.
D’fhiafraigh sí domhsa cá raibh mo léine,
mo bhuig, mo bhéabhar, ‘s gan fiú na mbróg;
gurb annamh a chonaic sise sac ma éideadh
ar fhear a bréagadh na cailín óg.


Níl an áit seo go Mín ‘a Lábáin,
nach bhfuil mé i ngrá le bean nó dhó,
bean sna Rosa thiar i Min ‘a Marach,
ó thaobh Ghleann Ailne ‘go dtí ‘n Mhucais Mhór,
dís i mBaoilleach, dís i mBáineach,
bean in Árainn ‘s a chois Ghaoth Dobhair,
ó Leitir Ceanainn go dtí Baile Dháibhí,
‘s go Coillidh Mhánais a chois an róid.


Bhí mé ar a’ Mhuine Mhór is i gCaisleán Chábha,
i mBaile Uí Dhálaigh is i Lios na Scíath,
bhí me i Muineachán agus ar a’ Ghráinsí,
is ag Droichead Chúil Áine le corradh ‘s bliain.
Aréir a tharla i nDroichead Átha mé,
‘s anocht atá mé fá Charn tSíail,
‘s anois más roghain leat ar fhearaibh fáil mé,
seo mo lámh dhuit, ‘s bím ag triall.


With a start I greeted the maiden,
without no trace of sense in my voice.
I inquired of her if there was a man in Ireland
whom she would choose over me in her path.
She asked of me where was my shirt,
my wig, my beaver hat, not to mention my shoes;
that she had rarely seen a sack as clothes
on a man who’d entice young girls.

There’s not a place from here to Min a’ Lábáin,
where I haven’t been in love with a woman or two,
a woman in the Rosses over in Min ‘a Marach,
from Gleann Ailne to Mucais Mh6r,
a pair in Baollach, a pair in Báineach,
a woman in Aran and one by Gweedore,
from Letterkenny to Ballydavid,
and to Coillidh Mhánais along the way.

I was in Moneymore, in Caislean Cabha,
in Baile Uí Dhálaigh and in Lisnaskea;
I have been in Monahan and at the Grainsi
and at Droichead Chúl Aine for over a year.
Last night I happened to be in Drogheda
and tonight I’m here around Carn tSial,
and now if you don’t prefer me to men of affairs,
here’s my hand to you and I’ll travel on.
I'm still a learner, so be sure to get input from others, especially for tattoos.

Post October 30 2010, 4:33 AM
Breandán
Giostaire
 
Posts: 4409
Mildir wrote:However, by this sentence, they don't literally mean that one's sense has left him/her, rather they mean that one's mental sanity has left them.
So "gur scar mo chiall uaim" = "that my mental sanity has left me" = "that I'm gone off my head"

PS You will see the sense of that "to be gone off my head" when reading the second Téarma


I am surprised that you are not aware that "to lose one's senses" also means "to lose one's mental sanity" -- so you see that there is no reason at all to change the original Irish idiom, because it also works fine in English. :wink:

@Caoimhín: That's a nice rendering of the next three verses, a Chaoimhín. Do you have the first verse as well?

Post October 30 2010, 23:21 PM
Mildir
New Arrival
 
Posts: 3
Gabh mo leithscéal as teacht déanach !
I'm travelling and just need to continuously set off. I'm sorry !

Thank you Caoimhín for posting here the next three verses, the version I saw translated was a little bit different in some points but I think it's all the same as for the meaning, general meaning at least...

Breandán:
I am surprised that you are not aware that "to lose one's senses" also means "to lose one's mental sanity" --

Táim buartha. Ní hé nach feasach mé é, ach níor thug mé faoi deara gur aistrigh túsa mar "senses" é thuas (i mBéarla, comharthaíonn "Senses" amháin "Sanity"), b'fhéidir de bhrí go bhfuil "Ciall" uatha, san amhrán...
Éard a chiallaíonn deifir a bheith ort ! :lach:
so you see that there is no reason at all to change the original Irish idiom, because it also works fine in English.

I see, but I was referring to the literal translation of "gur scar mo chiall uaim", that would be "that my sense parted from me" (as you see no plural).

Slán libh go fóill beag ! :D

Post October 31 2010, 19:39 PM
CaoimhínSF
Craiceáilte
 
Posts: 5554
@Caoimhín: That's a nice rendering of the next three verses, a Chaoimhín. Do you have the first verse as well?


Yes, here it is, but note that I did not do the translation. I scanned it from a booklet some time ago. I may have done some clean-up and/or fixed some obvious errors. I usually have to do that when scanning a translation from a booklet which comes with a CD, because they often have oddities in them (probably because the printer did not understand Irish). Hopefully I didn't add any errors:

Ar mo tharraingt siar go Carn tSiail dom,
go haonach bhliantúil ‘n Féil’ Muire Mór,
tharla an ainnir as an taobh aniar dom,
‘gus í go cianmhar ‘gabháil tharam sa ród.
Dar liom féin, ó, gur scar mo chiall uaim,
mar bheinn ag siabhrán nó seal ag ól;
chonacthas domhsa gur dhorcha ‘n ghrian gheal,
le taobh gach dealraimh ina gruaidh mar rós.


As I was going out to Carn tSiail,
to the annual fair on Assumption Day,
it happened that a young woman came toward me,
as she pensively passed me by.
It seemed to me that all sense had left me,
as if deluded or the worse for drink;
it looked to me as though the bright sun were dark,
compared to the radiance in her cheeks like roses.

This translation handles siar go and then aniar dom differently, with the speaker going "out to the fair", and the young woman coming towards him from that direction (not necessarily to the west, as has already been noted, since siar/aniar can mean "out there" and "from out there").
I'm still a learner, so be sure to get input from others, especially for tattoos.



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