Irish Translation Forum

Hello all,

I was wondering what this sentence translated means. "Is é an t-ainm a bhí air ná séana." The word ná is throwing me off a bit, according to the dictionary it is a negative grammar structure, but I'm not sure.

thanks.

That's the old neoplastic, er, pleonastic ná. There isn't an English word to compare it to, as far as I'm aware. I think of it like a colon (:), it serves to introduce a clause that provides more information.

A literal translation of that sentence will help you understand the structure better:

It is/was the name that was on him: Séana.

Less literally:

His name: Séana.

I think you can only use it in copula sentences, but I'm not sure of all the details. Wombat will assign some wombat scientists to research this.

it's what's called a pleonastic "ná" it basically means "but" but it can just as easily be left out, it has no real meaning in the sentence, it marks a sort of hiatus, a pause, in the sentence.
i can think of something similar in dutch and french but i can't really think of an example in english.

Bhí fear ann fadó agus is é ainm a bhí air ná Séadna.
after seeing wombat's post, it's not really just copular sentences but they are far more common
cé bhfeicfimis ansan ná deartháir dí.
who should we see but a brother of hers

Swisscheese wrote:Hello all,

I was wondering what this sentence translated means. "Is é an t-ainm a bhí air ná séana." The word ná is throwing me off a bit, according to the dictionary it is a negative grammar structure, but I'm not sure.

thanks.

"It is the name that was on him (ná) Séana"

the "ná" cannot be translated, as it does not exist in English.
If you attempted to approximate what it means it would be something like...

"he was named no other than...Séana"

"Ná", in this context, is a delightful concept in Irish.The grammatically negative conjunctions work similarly as their cognates in English..

but/ except/ (only), ach (amháin)

gan, without...but

"ná" doesn't correspond exactly to anything in English, or operate in any way that is fully intelligible in the syntax or semantic constructions of English either. It's a completely different expression and interpretation of how to communicate. Because the concept doesn't exist in English, don't assign an arbitrary function to it. This is an opportunity to embrace and construct a new concept in a new language.

Caffler wrote:it's what's called a pleonastic "ná" it basically means "but" but it can just as easily be left out, it has no real meaning in the sentence, it marks a sort of hiatus, a pause, in the sentence.
i can think of something similar in dutch and french but i can't really think of an example in english.

Bhí fear ann fadó agus is é ainm a bhí air ná Séadna.

It has a very definite meaning. "Pleonastic" is a strange term in this instance. Pleonastic words from other languages are normally considered not to have any meaning in English, which is true. However, that doesn't mean that they don't have meaning in the natural context of which ever language they come from.

"Ná" has a definite meaning in these types of sentences. I agree that is some sort of hiatus. That is an interesting idea. Do you think it comes from a performative expression, the strength of a once over-arching orality, that there nearly is a dramatic sense to this word?

rossai wrote:

Caffler wrote:it's what's called a pleonastic "ná" it basically means "but" but it can just as easily be left out, it has no real meaning in the sentence, it marks a sort of hiatus, a pause, in the sentence.
i can think of something similar in dutch and french but i can't really think of an example in english.

Bhí fear ann fadó agus is é ainm a bhí air ná Séadna.

It has a very definite meaning. "Pleonastic" is a strange term in this instance. Pleonastic words from other languages are normally considered not to have any meaning in English, which is true. However, that doesn't mean that they don't have meaning in the natural context of which ever language they come from.

"Ná" has a definite meaning in these types of sentences. I agree that is some sort of hiatus. That is an interesting idea. Do you think it comes from a performative expression, the strength of a once over-arching orality, that there nearly is a dramatic sense to this word?

Agreed. That sentence, excluding the "ná" would, quite simply, be grammatically incorrect.

Gumbi wrote:

rossai wrote:

Caffler wrote:it's what's called a pleonastic "ná" it basically means "but" but it can just as easily be left out, it has no real meaning in the sentence, it marks a sort of hiatus, a pause, in the sentence.
i can think of something similar in dutch and french but i can't really think of an example in english.

Bhí fear ann fadó agus is é ainm a bhí air ná Séadna.

It has a very definite meaning. "Pleonastic" is a strange term in this instance. Pleonastic words from other languages are normally considered not to have any meaning in English, which is true. However, that doesn't mean that they don't have meaning in the natural context of which ever language they come from.

"Ná" has a definite meaning in these types of sentences. I agree that is some sort of hiatus. That is an interesting idea. Do you think it comes from a performative expression, the strength of a once over-arching orality, that there nearly is a dramatic sense to this word?

Agreed. That sentence, excluding the "ná" would, quite simply, be grammatically incorrect.

Nah...'ná' isn't necessary: the grammar is fine without it. That stuff wot rossai is saying is interesting though.

Really? So "Is é an t-ainm a bhí air Séana" is right?

I'd say the 'ná' is important, because I would never say the sentence above.